Guest: Jennifer Curry, PhD, Counselor Education Program, LSU College of Human Sciences & Education
Host: Lacy Dicharry, Senior Director & Executive Coach, LSU Leadership Development Institute
Published: July 28, 2026
Run time: 33:13
Children start ruling careers out at five years old. By middle school they have decided whether they are college material. By ninth grade many of them cannot say how anything they learn in school connects to work.
Dr. Jen Curry studies career development in young children and is a lead expert consultant on the PBS Kids show Skillsville. She talks with Lacy Dicharry about the two rules she gives every parent, why she asks the mechanic working on her car about his favorite school subject, and what employers who say they are waiting for people to come out of high school are getting wrong.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Lacy Dicharry: What did you want to be when you grew up? When we think about career development, we usually picture going to college and what we want to study. But what if a lot of that happens much earlier? Today on the pod, we're talking about early career development and the role it plays in shaping our confidence and how we see the world and our coworkers.
Welcome to Teams That Win, a podcast from the LSU Leadership Development Institute, where we explore the practice of leadership and systems that shape how we lead. I'm Lacy Dicharry, Senior Director at LDI, and I'm joined by Dr. Jen Curry.
Dr. Curry is a faculty member at LSU's College of Human Sciences & Education, where she teaches in the counselor education program. She serves as a lead expert consultant on the PBS Kids Skillsville program, a career exploration initiative designed to help young children see themselves in a variety of careers and develop foundational skills. In that role, she has helped guide the development of Skillsville's educational content and ensure the series aligns with evidence based practices for early career exposure.
You are also telling me about some really interesting work around the world, so let's jump in.
Dr. Jen Curry: Thank you so much for having me.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah, thank you for being here. I'm personally really excited about this topic. I know for myself, I grew up in a very rural area. I knew somehow that I wanted to go to college. My grandfather had an eighth grade education. He was a farmer. My father graduated high school and was a blue collar worker. My mom got her GED in prison. And so I was a first generation college student.
I didn't see this [modeled] growing up, but somehow I knew that this is what I wanted to do. And so I know how impactful this is. A lot of my cousins and other people, they only saw, particularly women, growing up and taking care of the family. And you could choose to be a nurse or be a teacher. And that was about the only educational pathways that I saw growing up.
Tell me a little bit about the work that you do, and why is it so important to career development?
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, first off, thank you for sharing that story. I think hearing people's personal stories, and how they basically evolved as a person in terms of careers, is really helpful to others.
You describe perfectly what happens to a lot of people, and that is that they are maybe pushed to go to college, but they don't know what for. And maybe they've even had people make suggestions to them, but they're not really sure, is this the right career for me? And even if they have a major, they don't know how the major relates to a career. We hear that quite often.
And so I actually tell people that the term to use is career and college readiness, because we want people to first have a sense of who they are, what their interests are, what their aptitudes are, their values, what motivates them as an individual. And then we can always look at post-secondary options. There's many post-secondary options for most careers. And so we don't want to over focus students on college [development]. But overwhelmingly that's what we find.
And kids are becoming all the time. And what I mean by that is, from the time they're born, they're starting to learn what their likes and dislikes are, what they enjoy doing. And those passions can follow them throughout life.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah, I love that you started with that identity piece. Like, who am I? A lot of leadership tends to focus on the skill development and what we do, but it doesn't focus on how we be.
Dr. Jen Curry: And who we are.
Lacy: And who we are. And everything stems from that. And so that's why a lot of the leadership work I do really starts with that self leadership component. Who am I? What are my values? Who am I at my core? And that's what we bring out in leaders.
Dr. Jen Curry: And that's what makes each leader unique. So if each person has their own interest, their own motivations, they're going to manifest in the work that they do. So we really want people to be able to explore those things early in life.
Lacy Dicharry: I'm curious, how did you get involved in career and college readiness?
Dr. Jen Curry: Thank you for asking that. A lot of people do ask me that. Like, how did you get this as a specialty? It's a little bit of a unique specialty, especially because I focus on young children all the way through the K-20 pipeline.
I have roots in Appalachia, Kentucky. And for those of you who are aware of Kentucky and that area, it's a very economically depressed area, but with a lot of potential. People who work hard, have a wonderful work ethic, and they want for their kids the same thing that somebody who's maybe in New York City in a very well-paying job would want for their kids. People everywhere want something for their children. They want their children to have opportunities they didn't have. Even people who have great privilege want their children to have opportunities.
And I became a counselor in a school, and one of the areas I was least prepared in was career and college readiness. And I realized, wait a second, nobody really taught me how to do this. In fact, most counseling programs have one class about careers, and they mostly focus on adult career development.
I had the idea, I want to explore this more, because I know that careers can give kids hope. So if a child is living in a situation where maybe their family is in poverty, maybe they have parents that are missing from their lives, maybe they're living with a guardian, maybe they just feel overall hopeless or despairing, knowing that life can get better matters. And it matters for helping our kids overcome anxiety and depression. And so seeing a pathway in your life, that things can be different for you, is so important. And that you do have choices you can make, even if it feels like you don't.
I decided this was a way to help kids actually get better. There's a lot of work in trauma and mental health counseling, but there was hardly anything in careers, and I really wanted to see that area grow and develop.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah, I love that, because I know that that's something that families across Louisiana struggle with all the time. And there's a lot of focus on workforce development right now, and how do you really build skills to match the need in Louisiana? There's tons of talent conversations across Louisiana. But what I love about what you're talking about is, how do we even allow children in these families to see a possibility? If we don't see it growing up, then we don't know it's a possibility for us.
How do you get the word out? How do you expose young children to these ideas about what careers could be?
Dr. Jen Curry: This is a really interesting point that you're making. Children are exposed all the time to careers, but they tend to, what we call, circumscribe out of careers very early in life. They think, well, that's going to cost too much money to get education. Or, men do those careers. Or, people who don't look like me are in those careers. And so they start to think, oh, well, maybe I'm not that good at this, or maybe I'm not that good at that.
And we can actually open up opportunities for kids to have exposure and access to careers every year that they're in school, in field trips, through projects, through guest speakers, through all kinds of self-exploration. And that allows kids to see themselves in positions that they maybe hadn't thought of before. The young child who maybe says, well, there's no way somebody like me becomes an astronaut. I actually wanted to be an astronaut as a child.
Lacy Dicharry: I was going to ask you that. An astronaut. What made you want to be an astronaut?
Dr. Jen Curry: I just love the stars. I love the sky.
Lacy: I love that.
Dr. Curry: And I knew that those were the people who got to see those things up close. But I didn't really know much about what somebody does who's an astronaut. And I didn't know about all the related fields. There's physics and astronomy and so many ways to study that I didn't even know about. And now I do.
And I see that this is the opportunity we have for kids. They don't have to learn about just doctor, lawyer. There's so many wonderful careers. They pay well. There's a lot of nuance to choosing a career, and giving them that exposure and access every year. Not in one class, not when they get to 12th grade, but their entire K-12 experience can help them.
Lacy Dicharry: It really does start young. And I think that you've done a lot of work in research specifically around how young it starts. Tell us about Skillsville. I know that this is a show that's on PBS Kids. It's accessible to a lot of people. People may or may not know about it. But tell me about the research side of it, and what is the impact that Skillsville has had so far?
Dr. Jen Curry: Wow. I can't say enough about Skillsville. I was contacted in 2020 by Dr. [Hayakawa], who is the author of the grant that funded Skillsville. And she said, listen, I'm looking for a unicorn. And I thought, what? And she said, I need somebody who knows about career development for very young children. And she said, really, yours is one of the only names I've found. And I said, well, that makes sense, because not a lot of people do this work.
And so we talked a little bit about what this program would be. It is an animated television show, but it's also an entire transmedia program with games and teacher lessons and lots of different things. But the idea of the show is that there are three kids, and they're growing up in an urban area, and they like to play together after school, and they play a virtual reality game that teaches them about careers, self-regulation, and executive functioning.
Lacy Dicharry: Teaching leadership skills very young. Those are very, very coveted leadership skills. They're getting that in after school specials or in classrooms?
Dr. Jen Curry: Classrooms and after school. And certainly parents can do this at home. It's very short. The segments are about 11 minutes long each. Each episode they have a problem that they're facing in the real world, and they learn about it in Skillsville through a career exploration.
And we try to get careers from all over the spectrum. Ones where you might be required to get a PhD. Ones where you would not have to have anything but high school education. And show the value of each of those careers, and how they relate and connect to the very core of who the kids in the show are.
I will also say that the show has three wonderful main characters. Their families are also really interesting. But we are the first kids television show, I believe, to have a child in a wheelchair as one of the main characters. And we wanted to showcase not a disability, but her abilities and how much she could do.
Lacy Dicharry: Yes, I love that. I do a conference every summer for young people across disabilities, and that's one of the things that we hear a lot: it's not about what we can't do, but help us with what we can do. What does this look like? And in careers, there's a lot of assumptions about pathways. [I work] with young people with all kinds of disabilities. And so that's amazing that you're doing that.
Dr. Jen Curry: Yeah. And we can really teach young people how to be their own self advocate. If they [have] an identified disability: what is it that you've learned from that? And how have you overcome your challenges? And what kinds of things can you bring that are unique to the workforce?
And I think we're just really starting to understand how much we need every person. Not just people who we have identified with a certain talent or a certain gift, but literally every person has something amazing to contribute to the workforce.
Lacy Dicharry: Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about the research side of it. What have you found? How does the early career exposure impact career decisions later on?
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, they impact career decisions in the moment. Kids are always, I kind of used that word earlier, circumscribing out of careers. So they are deciding every time they run into a career if it's something they would like to do or not like to do, or if they're able or not able to do it.
And in some of our preliminary research, we found that kids very early on, five or six years old, were saying, I don't want to be a teacher. And I found that very befuddling, because 20 years ago, if we'd asked that, lots of kids would want to be a teacher. But the high accountability, the high stress of teaching, they see it. They see it in the classrooms, and they would talk about it.
So we actually interviewed lots of kids. And the research is astounding, that basically kids are deciding by five and six years old. We know that by the time they go to middle school, they have decided if they're college material or not. So we need to get ahead of that.
And then by ninth grade, a lot of kids can't tell us how school connects to the world of work. So you hear kids say things like, why do I have to learn algebra? I'm never going to use it. And in fact, they don't realize how connected it is to their everyday life, because we haven't made it a sound connection for them.
I learned a lot in doing research. I've written seven books, and through this process I've learned there's so many ways to mitigate these problems of kids not knowing. Because they can know, and we as adults can help them.
Lacy Dicharry: What do you think is the most important thing for parents to hear out of this work that you've done?
Dr. Jen Curry: I have a term that I use. I always say, don't be the dream squasher. The dream squasher is the person who tells people what they can't do. I don't do that. I am not a career counselor who, if you came to me, would say something like, oh, that job is not for you, let's take that off the table.
What I say is, tell me about your interest in this. Tell me about why you want to be a social media influencer. Let's look at all the things that you need to know to be a social media influencer. Let's look at how you do data metrics and data analysis, and how do you do all of the pieces of it.
And if that's something somebody's interested in, it's not up to us to tell them they can't do it. It's up to us to tell them what all the pieces are that they can put in place to be successful.
Lacy Dicharry: Yes, I love that. My past life is working with young people who are in [unclear] foster care, juvenile justice. And so we would always get these young people who would come in and say, I want to be a basketball player, or they want to run the streets, they want to do what they see every day. And be a street pharmacist, as one said.
And so it's really about the opportunities and support and saying, okay, tell me, what kind of skills do you need to be able to do that? What are the risks? What do you need to develop? And really what they want to do is entrepreneurship. And so if you can sit with and have that conversation, it's not that I'm condoning and saying that's an excellent career choice. It's helping to think through. And then, what do you need to know, and what are the opportunities and supports that need to be in place for those young people to be able to access what they want to do?
Dr. Jen Curry: Yeah. And so I love your example here. What about the kid who says, I want to be a social media influencer, I want to be an athlete, or I like running the streets, I like my freedom? It's about helping them to see what it is that they value in a career. Maybe you value independence. Maybe you value freedom. Maybe you value being able to make your own choices. We call that autonomy. And so talking them through, what are some of the things that you're hearing them say beyond the words?
Lacy Dicharry: Number one important thing, don't be a dream squasher. And then what's number two?
Dr. Jen Curry: Number two is, be an excellent interviewer. You're doing this right now. But when I go out with my son and we run into somebody, let's say, who is working on my car, who's a car mechanic, I ask them lots of questions. How did you get interested in your current job? And, is this long term your career?
And then I might ask questions like, what were you really good at in school? What was your favorite subject? And I might say, what's something that challenges you on your job that most people would be surprised by?
I ask questions, and I have found so many people, because I'm standing there with a child, are willing to answer these questions. And over time I'm asking less questions and he's asking more questions.
Lacy Dicharry: Yes. That's a great list of questions. If you need to, pause it and rewind and write them down and have that conversation at dinner tonight with your family or your kids.
And I also would challenge leaders. A big piece of burnout is that leaders are doing a job that actually doesn't align with their skills or their strengths. They just stay in and do it because it's what's there, or it's what they've always done. And part of the work we do is really around [strengths] based leadership and [strengths] based development.
And I could imagine even sitting there as a leader, asking myself, if I'm feeling burnout or if I'm not quite thriving in my role: what did I like to do? What did I want to do? What about that was important to me? What did I want to do when I was growing up? And some of it is, even if you don't change the job, you can kind of shift the mindset about, maybe there's some changes I can make within this role that align with everything that you were talking about in those questions. I would challenge leaders to ask yourself those questions as well and see what comes up.
Dr. Jen Curry: Sure. What do I want to contribute? What problems do I still want to solve in this space? That is the way to rethink your role.
And everybody is sort of what I like to call a career chameleon. We all have to be adaptable. We have to be flexible, because our spaces are changing all the time. Our culture continues to change and evolve. And so we want people to be able to say, all right, so here's the problem I was solving. Maybe it's resolved, maybe it's changed. But what do I want to contribute now?
This has come up for me a lot in my work in Dubai. I work in Dubai some, and with a lot of students. When I would talk to their career counselors, their counselors would say, well, their family has a business, so they're going to go into business. And I would say, but how are they going to contribute to that business?
If you believe that the student has to go into business, is that aligned to their interests? What if they have an interest in computer science? Could they help their family develop the computer management systems they need for their business? If they're interested in working with people, could they do human relations type work in that workspace? If they're interested in money, could they do the accounting side of the business?
I try to get people to think more broadly and more deeply, so you're not ever pigeonholed into a career that you can't have adapt around you as well. Just like our systems influence us, we influence our systems.
Lacy Dicharry: And Dubai, that's very exciting. Tell us a little bit more about what your goal is in Dubai, and what does that work look like over there?
Dr. Jen Curry: First I want to say the Emirati people are so kind and so generous, and it is one of the most wonderful places I have ever worked. People are very welcoming, they're very kind.
And I've been asked to do some work on their K-20 career policy. And so they really want to look at, how do we help, starting with young children all the way through. Maybe they're in year 20 of schooling. Maybe they go to graduate school, maybe they get a doctoral degree of some type. And they want to really look at, how do we align the skills and competencies to career, but also help people better understand themselves so they make the choices that are fulfilling for them? It's really been a fun opportunity.
Lacy Dicharry: That sounds amazing. What's one of the most surprising things that you've learned about yourself in working in a completely different environment, different country?
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, I certainly feel like the world gets bigger all the time in some ways, but also smaller. And one thing that I have really learned about myself is how much I love and enjoy other cultures and museums and learning about the history of other places. I used to think I wasn't much of a history person, but I am a history nut. I love to hear stories.
And I've just learned that we are all so much alike. We want similar things. We want our families to be happy and healthy. We want to connect to our community. Most people want that sense of belonging and cohesion, and they just really will reach out if you're open and available to them.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah, I love that. What are the biggest lessons in leadership that you've learned in your work so far?
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, I've been a professor for almost 20 years.
Lacy Dicharry: That's a long time.
Dr. Jen Curry: And what I've learned is that I always have so much more to learn. I'm learning to work with Gen Z, and I love the strengths that they're going to be bringing to the workplace.
Lacy Dicharry: Say more about this, because this is one of the biggest topics, one of the most challenging ones that I get, the generational divides. And they talk about all of the things that are hard about it, and how do we deal with this with five generations in the workplace. I also see a lot of strengths. I mean, we went through the same thing when millennials came into the workforce, and now the Gen Zs are coming in. Say more about the strengths that you see from Gen Z.
Dr. Jen Curry: And from millennials. I love that you brought out the fact that we had similar conversations when millennials entered the workplace. And millennials changed my life.
I am a young Gen Xer. But I remember when I entered the workforce, at the time I was investigating crimes against children, and you worked as long as you were expected to work. There wasn't a thing like work life balance, and there wasn't setting boundaries and saying, I need to make sure that my mental health is okay and my physical health. And really, millennials were a generation that said, you know what, we're going to put some boundaries on this, and we deserve to have a life and we deserve to be well. And I thought, that is a right. That is a right that workers should have. And I learned so much when they entered the workforce. They are amazing.
And now it's going to be the same with Gen Z. They are going to be able to take the data literacy that they have, the information literacy that they have, and they're going to be able to change how we access information, how we consume it, ways that we learn, how to interact with each other in different capacities.
I said that sometimes the world is shrinking. Really, I credit this generation with making it accessible for us to be able to use technology to work with people who are in different time zones across the world. I did a training one time for people in Guam, a whole day training online.
And I've just realized that technology is not something we need to fear, for those of us who are not Gen Z, but embrace. And I love learning from my students. I'll say, hey, I don't know how to create an avatar, can you show me? And they'll say, yes. And they're going to change the field of counseling tremendously, and in very good ways.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah, that's been my experience with Gen Z. They are always excited to share their knowledge. They're some of the most enthusiastic teachers I have ever seen. The informal and incidental learning that happens in the workplace, a lot of that on my team has come from our graduate assistant, who is a Gen Z, and she is just thrilled to share her knowledge about AI or any kind of tech or media or different ways of doing things.
And I think they think differently as well. In my experience, they think in more like constellation. They see all these different data points and then they're pulling them together, rather than some of the previous generations were more linear or even circular in their thinking. And so I'm excited about that. Some people think it is just like more ADHD, or kind of feels all over the place. But for me, it has helped to give a totally different perspective and connect dots that weren't previously being connected.
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, I'm glad you said that. I was actually doing some career coaching with a young man whose mother was concerned that he had ADHD, and she said, is this going to hurt his career? And this young man wants to do crime scene investigation. And I said, you know what, that's actually going to be his strength. Because he's going to look outside the box and see things that other people don't see. So he's actually well attuned to that.
And I do hear more people saying, well, we have all these kids with ADHD and kids with autism. My son has autism. And I say, and aren't we lucky to have them in the workforce? Because truly, they're going to change the way we look at things. They're creative and thoughtful. And so we have to learn to adapt to new generations, and to the way that they learn and the way that they lead.
Lacy Dicharry: Yes. I want to dig in there a little bit more, because as a person with ADHD personally, and leading different team members, neurodiversity in the workplace is a huge topic. And I'm so curious, number one, what do leaders need to know about neurodiversity?
Dr. Jen Curry: Do not be afraid to hire and have people on your team who are neurodiverse. They are bringing so much to the workforce. In fact, I've been reading a lot more about STEM careers and the need for people who are autistic and the need for people who have ADHD, because again, that's a creative thinker. That's the out-of-the-box thinker. We can't be afraid of people who think out of the box. That actually is an asset.
And the more diverse opinions we have, the more diverse ways that we can look at problems and how to solve problems, the better off we are. And so if somebody seems a little different to you in an interview, if they disclose that they have been identified with autism or with any type of neurodivergence, I would say that's the person you might want to explore a little bit more, because the outcomes when they're at work have been shown to be pretty good. So we want people who can help us to adapt to the world as it is.
Lacy Dicharry: Yeah. And I know a lot of parents who have children who may be on the autism spectrum, or have some kind of experience of that, or any other type of neurodiversity. And there's a lot of worry and fear. Like we talked about before: what can they do? What is it going to look like? What are the options? Can you share a little bit more about what are the types of jobs and careers that are an amazing fit for that?
Dr. Jen Curry: STEM careers. The research shows profoundly, STEM careers.
Lacy Dicharry: How so?
Dr. Jen Curry: Again, it's that innovation. The ability to use technology effectively. When they dig in, they really dig in to solve a problem. So they are able to take in a lot of pieces of information. They're able to focus on something that's really meaningful to them, and they're going to see it differently than other people. They're going to come with a perspective that's fresh, innovative, thoughtful. And we need them in STEM careers. So this is an exciting opportunity for us to find people who might just be a wonderful fit for those careers.
Lacy Dicharry: So then that circles back to the Skillsville type stuff and that early exposure. What can parents do to help expose their young children more specifically to STEM or tech or some of those more innovative careers?
Dr. Jen Curry: I love that. Go to museums, take opportunities at the library. Our public libraries host all kinds of events. They have books, they have videos, they have all kinds of opportunities for kids to engage in activities. A lot of libraries will have coding for children, early coding. They can learn about science, science speakers.
Certainly going to the things that are natural in your area. For example, here we have swamps, and we have this wonderful Bluebonnet Swamp, and going out, exposing your child to nature. These are all things that are free.
And then using the spaces that you have. Everything can be an exploration. When my son was little and we would be cooking, I would make sure he was the one who was measuring out flour or sugar. Just those early learning opportunities.
We would go on exploration and nature walks, and I would give him a bucket, and I would say, you can pick up any treasure you want on this walk that's a natural treasure, as long as [it's not] a snake. I'm not opposed to snakes, but just want to make sure we're not picking up a venomous snake. And we'll take it home and we'll do some more learning about that.
And he would pick up acorns, and he would pick up seed pods and leaves, and we would try to figure out the tree it went to. There's so many things you can do. You have to get off the screen sometimes to do it, but it's wonderful to just take those walks and learn about your environment.
Sometimes we would walk, and I would say, what do you notice different about the architecture of this house and how it was built, and this house over here? And we would do comparisons like that. And he loves it. Today he wants to be an engineer. He loves building.
Lacy Dicharry: That is amazing. It's really just slowing down and being present and letting them lead and getting curious and asking those questions. But with the end in mind that you're helping to align some of the sub skills or the experiences of certain careers, so they can explore. Really cultivating those experiences for them to explore.
Dr. Jen Curry: Absolutely. And I remember one of the first things he learned about in engineering was the amount of triangles that are in things like bridges and buildings. And when we were driving, I would say, okay, so if you see a triangle, make sure you show it to me. Or if you see an arch. And he would point them out from the back seat. But he was starting to take notice of those things.
Lacy Dicharry: What is the one thing that you want to make sure happens as a result of your career?
Dr. Jen Curry: Well, I mentioned my Appalachian roots. And I really want kids from low income especially to know that they have opportunities that are available to them. I want people to feel like they're making confident career decisions. They feel interested and curious about their pathway, that they see that there's so many available opportunities for post-secondary success. But also, your career can look many ways. You can be flexible, and throughout your career it's going to change. But I want people to feel confident, and not just to make any career decision, but a good one for themselves, because they're informed.
Lacy Dicharry: I mean, really incredible work that you're doing. And what I'm hearing, and what I would want to leave business owners with across Louisiana, is get involved locally. There's a lot of corporate social responsibility. There's career fair days. Everybody has a local school. See what you can do to help expose young children to what you do. And you are providing that opportunity and that pathway for the future workforce of Louisiana. And so as we heard here, it starts early, way earlier than what we thought.
Dr. Jen Curry: Yes. And I have challenged some employers on that before. I've had people say, well, what are we going to do to get more people into construction? I'll say, tell me what you're doing. And they will say, well, I'm waiting for people to come from high school.
Lacy Dicharry: Waiting is the key word there.
Dr. Jen Curry: And I'd say, wait a second. So you have an incredible role to play. Go to Home Depot or Lowe's on Saturday mornings when kids are building, participate. Tell parents about different career options. Be a mentor in a school. Go in and do presentations. There's always a need for that. Help kids with projects. There's lots of ways to get connected. And we need you employers to be connected to our kids.
Lacy Dicharry: Yes, I love that. Thank you so much for coming and sharing all of this. I think I've learned a lot, being able to help connect those dots between the leaders of Louisiana and the businesses, and understanding that their workforce is young right now. Get in there early for sure. Thank you so much for coming.
Dr. Jen Curry: Thank you for having me.
Lacy Dicharry: [close] To learn more about the Leadership Development Institute at LSU, and how we can support leaders, teams and organizations through strategic development, coaching and facilitation, please visit us at [LSU website] and connect with us online [at LDI]. Thank you for listening to Teams That Win.